...to make myself understood. It seems I have managed to confuse everyone--myself included--about my thinking on this pseudo-topic of "moderate" Muslims.  In the first place, I consider the current usage of the term "moderate" to be pure Blitzer-Cooper CNN-speak, typically applied to Republicans like Lincoln Chafee or Colin Powell, whose chief aim in life appears to be to curry favor with the liberal media.  As such, it excludes itself from my vocabulary.  It seems to me that in a recent post received with the Hosannas appropriate to the season, George Mellinger exerts himself in beating the stuffing out of a straw man.  When he writes "My friend John says he 'believes or at least hopes' that he can find good moderate Muslims," his friend John is painfully aware that he has not made himself clear.

Continued...

What I tried to say was that people of Muslim family background and cullture can be valuable allies in the necessary attack on the resurgence of expansionist jihadism that we have suffered from in the past couple of decades.  A case in point--some time ago, I linked to a post by a young American blogger called Muslihoon.  Here is the brief description of himself that he posts on his blog.

Of South Asian descent, American citizen by birth, and a college graduate, I study religions and languages as a hobby. I was born a Muslim but left Islam in 10th grade. Since then I converted to Christianity. I am unapologetically a Zionist, Jewophile, patriotic, hawkish, opinionated, and with regard to international relations a systemist. My primary interests these days are Islamic militancy (which goes by many names) and modern reformed fundamentalist Islam (the Salafi movement within Islam).

Does that sound to you like a wishy-washy Muslim, a weathervane Muslim, or any kind of Muslim at all? Nor to me. The reason I recommend him to readers is that he is an ex-muslim anti-jihadist. The second link preceding the block-quote reveals a profound and intimate knowledge of Muslim culture--specifically tribalism--that I wish [oops, wishful thinking again?] formed part of the intellectual equipment of our leadership. Congressman Reyes, recently designated as incoming chairman of the House Committee on Intelligence, has created considerable buzz by an interview in which he revealed his woeful ignorance of the enemy we must combat.  I wish [there I go again...] that such lamentable lack of basic knowledge were rare among our leaders, from the White House on down, but such is not the case.  My point is a very simple one.  Politicians, generals, diplomats and the public need to know what we are facing.  I happen to believe that ex-Muslims like Muslihoon or Isaac Schrödinger or Muslim dissidents like this country's Free Muslims are a valuable source of such knowledge.

Contrary to what George seems to think, I have never advocated hope or wishful thinking as policy. But I would like to point out that Hope, along with Faith and Charity, is a cardinal virtue in the Christian scheme of things.  I think that a tendency to reject the aid of Muslim "apostates" and practicing Muslims, such as the American Free Muslims, who are opposed to Islam of the Ahmadinejad variety is not only uncharitable but downright foolish.

I share George's sympathy for the downtrodden ordinary citizen of countries such as Iran or Iraq regions such as Anbar, who have no choice but to submit to the locally dominant forces.  When I advocate alliances with Muslim dissidents or ex-Muslim anit-jihadists, I do not have some Middle Eastern Piers Plowman in mind.  Figures such as Amir Taheri or Irshad Manji are far more influential and potentially more significant.

One final note. My very good friend Gray Dog has written extensively in his inimitable style here and elsewhere on his attempts to test the tolerance level of the 910 group. Perhaps I am trying something similar in Old War Dogs?  Only the Shadow knows...

Contributed by John Werntz on December 22, 2006 at 01:46 PM in Current Affairs, Islamism Delenda Est, John "72nd TCS" Werntz, Unclear on the concept | Permalink

Comments

Posted by: The Gray Dog

John,

It’s always a pleasure to read your posts, as they are always thoughtful and written in your own exquisite style. I know you addressed George’s posts more often than mine and I certainly won’t presume to respond for him. I’m just not in his league.

As for me, first, your recap of Mushiloon’s background makes one of my points. Mushiloon is not a moderate Muslim, simply because he is not a Muslim at all. I don’t have issues with the concept of an individual of Muslim background who, through whatever personal epiphany comes to the decision to reject his faith, or declare that he can not faithfully follow the teachings of their religion any longer. I also have no trouble believing that he would make a fine warrior in any anti-jihadist group he should care to affiliate himself with.

However, perhaps it is I that is responsible for not being clear at explaining just what it is that has me rankled with some aspects of the 910 Group. There appears to be a mindset and group culture at 910 that overly stresses the importance of such moderate groups, while preaching to its members that we must all show tolerance. In fact, failure to be tolerant of these Muslims of questionable status will not be tolerated by the 910 Group. And I can tell you that there concerns are not legal. I was told that they did not want overt anti-Islamic rhetoric to upset the moderate Muslims they were hoping to attract. It was stressed how much “we” need their help. I for one, think that any committed anti-jihadist Muslim would not take any general criticism of Islam personally. If he did, perhaps he’s not really the anti-jihadist you want.

For a group that I thought stood for the defeat of the Islamic Threat to Western Civilization, they seem to be fixated on the theme of moderate Islam to the point of obsession and to the exclusion of many of their would be non-Muslim members. I have received a number of private communications from other 910 members that believe as I do, that this obsession and belief that 910 Group will successfully unite with these moderate Muslim groups to install a fifth column within Islam is a fool’s errand. A few of the veterans have significant intelligence expertise as well as time and willingness to participate in this group but are instead getting turned off. A few have already said they have no further interest in the group. The 910 group may end up being little more than an adjunct of the American Congress for Truth. In fact, it would appear that their purpose and goals are so well aligned, why doesn’t the 910 group leadership not just throw in with the ACFT? The only reason I can think of, is that if they did, they would no longer be “the leadership.”

Call me a cynic?

Posted by: The Gray Dog | Dec 22, 2006 3:17:10 PM

Posted by: John

GD:
[To outsiders--that stands for Gray Dog, not GolDang, as you may have thought. This is a family site.]

Hosanna! I think we're in complete agreement. As I wrote to one of the Founders on the topic of the MM--You can be one or the other, but not both. Re the PC smarm on the 910 Forum: That makes me queasy also. I don't know if they really mean it, or are just hoping to avoid lawsuits.

Now I learn from you that vets are being brushed off from the CIGO thing? That just about tears it. I don't have a blogroll, only a list of faves. With this latest news, their position on it is at best precarious.

You a cynic? Nah. No more than is absolutely necessary. They are self-appointed and excessively self-congratulatory. I'm beginning to wonder what the Baron is doing in that crew. Maybe it's just Virginia chauvinism?

Posted by: John | Dec 22, 2006 4:12:13 PM

Posted by: ponsdorf

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them." My personal sense of 'tolerance' is pretty close to those words from John Wayne's almost cartoonish character in the movie, "The Shootist". I am gleefully simple minded, nuance is an annoyance I can do without in most cases (dealing with The Wife comes to mind as one exception).

Moderation is whole other kettle of fish in current terms, as you note.

RE: The 910 Group. I'm with Mike. Using the word 'fight' and the word 'moderation' in the same screed is questionable, if not ridiculous.

And John, my respected friend, the suggested comparison in your last paragraph approaches being disingenuous. OWD has never been anything like the 910 Group. No one here has EVER told me I had to be moderate and tolerant, here or in my personal blog. The only rule I remember was to not get Bill thrown in jail or some such. The 910 Group seems to be adding rules almost daily, and in some cases adding them after the fact.

Posted by: ponsdorf | Dec 22, 2006 4:51:57 PM

Posted by: Bill Faith

Exactly right, Zero. The only rule for posting on this site, aside from the fact that if you say something nice about Kerry the pack will eat you alive, is don't get me in legal trouble. And just so everyone in the pack understands, I'll be damned if an outside group is going to make up new rules for me. Maybe my give-a-shit's just out of whack these days but nothing would suit this Old Dog more than to be informed they've de-linked our site so I can de-link theirs.

Posted by: Bill Faith | Dec 22, 2006 6:16:36 PM

Posted by: John

One Ultimate Try?

Well, I learn that my effort to make myself understood has resulted in abject failure, as usual.  When I wrote this--

One final note. My very good friend Gray Dog has written extensively in his inimitable style here and elsewhere on his attempts to test the tolerance level of the 910 group,

anyone who followed the link would have realized that I was referring to the fact that the Virginians at 910 barred Gray Dog from the plantation because he had the temerity to criticise some of their high-flown notions.  That is all.  The last thing in the world I had in mind was that OWD should imitate them.

I am at a loss to understand how I manage to create such misconceptions.  Perhaps the solution for me is to hit the MUTE button permanently.

Posted by: John | Dec 23, 2006 10:44:44 PM